While in CA I was going to "bug in" right there at home.....but...... I also had the plans for the underground water system that would had allowed me to scape (if I had to) in summer.

For this I had a micro motor scotter that I could take apart in 3 sections and lowered into the man hole, with a back pack, 3 extra gallons of fuel plus one gallon of water..... instaled solid tires on the scooter.

One time I took a peek and went around three miles underground and everything was ok, I could travel around 75 miles underground and get out of the city.

Our home is basically at the end of the road, Where would we go ?
We are 125 miles to Anchorage, where half the population of the state of Alaska lives. There are two military bases there which involves first strike areas.
I carry a emergency bag in my work truck to make a hard trip home less hard. I am self employed and rarely venture more than 20 miles from home.
We are set up to stay right here.
.....................................................Alaskan

chicom wrote:In a terminal shtf scenario such as economic collapse or EMP attack, your only choice is to bug out. If you live in an urban area and have stocked supplies, eventually you are going to run out. One has to perpetually replenish sustinance to maintain an existence. That could be quite difficult in an urban locale.

Another aspect is that other urban dwellers have not prepared as well as you. In essence, you have food and they're hungry. Since the 1940's the concept of static defense has been shown to be an exercise in folly. So unless you live within a stone rampart, the best option would be to scoot. Fighting off hordes of hungry neighbors and nefarious characters is at best , a losing proposition.

Now like CFI said, appraise the situation and act accordingly. That's the best anyone can do. If something happens, you'll know when to di di.

I can agree with the first part of this. You MUST have a way to replenish some of your supplies. And no I do NOT mean "hitting a walmart." Either Bubba and his kinfolk or Jamal and his 'Posse' will be fighting over that, let them fight over it, less folks you have to worry about.

Where a BOL WON'T work is near to masses of system dependent people, a.k.a. a city. 20 miles away in the suburbs is NOT the place to try to survive. I don't care what you have for weaponry.

You must get far away from the cities.

http://www.survivalreportblog.com/Volume_57.html



On the second part of the post-

There seems to be this thing where people don't understand the need for defenses. Folks love to throw around that "fixed fortifications are a monument to man's stupidity" saying that Patton said in WWII.

Well let's look at that- he was talking about two CONVENTIONAL armies, with all the goodies conventional armies have- tanks, planes, artillery, thousands of troops to "lose" taking a position, etc.

Do you have any of these? Will Jo Jo the average looter have any of these things? Highly doubtful.

OK, so how exactly do you intend to defend what you have? EVERYONE can get surprised, everyone.

Patrols out regularly, by all means. Block roads out away from your retreat, possibly if no one knows YOU did it. But if/when the fight comes to YOUR DOOR. What then?

If you've realized you have to mount a 24/7 guard, where will they be stationed at? Inside a house? Not exactly a first line defense. Also, do you realize how little an average house will stop in the way of bullets? How far can you THROW? Do you have physical barriers i.e, fence far enough away from your home to keep a molotov pitching looter back enough so as not to burn your stick framed house to the ground?

You MUST have defensive positions out AWAY from the dwellings at your retreat. Or would you rather have fire directed AT your living quarters which will most likely NOT be bulletproof and which will most likely have your wife and family in there? Think about it.

If you have no defensive positions, you just have Joe Schmo the guard standing around outside, the first bullet is going to hit him and you have no ready defense.

The bare minimums that you need are a physical barrier i.e, fence at the property line, a fence at your inner perimeter, defensive position(s) that can cover the inner perimeter with fire.

How many positions you have depends on topography and group size. A group of 4 or even 6 would have a hard time manning two positions. A group of 10 or 12 can do it no problem. Remember, we are talking about 24/7 security day in day out.

There will be much to do on a regular basis








also amongst other things, so now is the time to find other folks to group up with. It would be next to impossible for a single family retreat to make it.

Here's some more ideas on this-

http://www.survivalreportblog.com/Volume_58.html

Lowdown3

Thats some good points, But nomatter how prepared you are, the thing your not prepared for will happen.

If you are going to "bug out" you don't want to be a refugee... what to do?

Make arangement with friends to where you want to go to and move your emergency supplys there or rent a rent a space where you can store your supply till you need it.

At this time I have a 4X10 trailer in my property fully loaded from someone who is moving in with me WTSHTF....smart.

Better to be one day too early than one minute to late.

I understand that I'm new to this forum, and that nobody really knows me at this point. I don't want to over-step my boundaries here, but I've seen threads on this subject for years in various places, and I always feel compelled to say what absolutely must be said under these circumstances.

First of all, no matter WHY it hits the fan, "we" will be instantly put into a defensive position versus "them". Now "they" can be any group your imagination can conjure, but the tactical situation will generally be the same: "You" will be facing superior numbers, superior command & control, superior logistics, superior technology, superior firepower capability. (The only exception to this would be in the case of gangs, which would, for the most part, be comprised of untrained, undisciplined personnel. These groups will likely be repelled rather easily, except in the case of Mara Salvatrucha/MS-13, many of which have military, mercenary, or para-military training and/or experience. ).

So, what doctrine is best applied to the scenario of a smaller force defending itself against a larger force? The doctrine of Guerilla Warfare (GW) is the only one which can be considered. And one of the primary governing rules of GW is the "hit and run" principle. In order for this to be effective, mobility must be enhanced to the greatest extent possible.

Thus: We NEVER defend a fixed position. (Ruby Ridge and Waco should serve as excellent examples of what WILL happen if you do.).

Again, I apologize if I've over-stepped any boundaries as a new member here. I would be remiss in my duties if I didn't speak up, and good people made bad decisions because of lack of information.

You know in your heart that Bugging In will get you burned out. It's simply what will happen. So, wouldn't it be better to focus your time, money and resources into: Learning to shoot, move and communicate, selecting and modifying a Bug Out Vehicle, networking with others for bulk purchaes, caching needed supplies and equipment, selecting Bug Out Routes (at least 3 to/from each Rally Point), learning what "they" will likely do so that you can deal with it more efficiently, learning convoy operations (especially if multiple vehicles will be involved in your Bug Out), learning radio communications...the list goes on.

While this IS my opinion on the situation, it is also the shared opinion of highly succesful GW leaders (politics aside), such as Che Guevara, Tito, Garibaldi, Judah and the Macabees, Sun Tzu, and others throughout history. Because it works.

I'll stop here, for now, and I'll thank you, in advance, for giving this concept your careful consideration. It will give you the best, fighting chance to survive the coming collapse.

Sincerely,

John Stillwater.

+1 for the shoot and scoot school of thought.

Welcome aboard!

You're not overstepping your boundaries at all. In fact, this is the sort of thought-out and well-reasoned post we like.

You bring up some good points. If you're in a city or the suburbs, near civilization at all, you're right - it's going to be immediate defense. The thing is (and I may just be assuming here, and we all know how well that works out) is that most people who are planning to bug in aren't talking about doing so in the middle of Manhattan. That's just really drawn-out suicide. I don't think you're really suggesting that these people who live off the grid and 20 miles from the middle of nowhere are best to bug out, are you?

As for the bugging out itself, you're absolutely right. It's survival and guerilla warfare all the way. But ultimately, when you bug out, you have to have some place to bug out to. You can't live the rest of your life on the run, living off the land or whatever you can scavenge. Well, you can, but it ain't very fun, and I certainly couldn't do it with my family. I personally just can't buy the concept of "Bugging in won't work." In the city, sure - there's no way you could. In the country, however, 10 miles from the nearest neighbor, not so much. Of course, it's good to have an escape plan in case it does get that bad (backups and contingencies are the name of the game for survivalists) but I wouldn't think such people should just up and GTFOOD.

if SHTF is a fight, you're absolutely right...GW is the only realistic answer. the thing is, SHTF can take many forms. if it were a nuclear attack on this nation (i'm speaking of a strategic attack here) then bugging in is far safer than running around in the fallout. if SHTF turns out to be H5N1 then bugging in or bugging out will depend greatly on your situation. if the event that causes TS to HTF is an economic collapse then your best course is to be as independant as possible and that will be a whole lot easier if you prepare a place now.

my point is we need to be ready for ALL possibilities. have a bug out location as well as supplies to allow you to bug in. at the same time, learn guerilla tactics and be prepared to 'shoot 'n scoot' if it becomes necessary. but to assume that SHTF HAS to be a fight against a superior (or inferior) force is short sighted, in my opinion.